[HELP] Telecine Vatiations Problems, Fixes and Questions...

[HELP] Telecine Vatiations Problems, Fixes and Questions... - Printable Version

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RE: Telecine Vatiations Problems, Fixes and Questions... - shijan - 11.08.2021

I can PM you test video

RE: Telecine Vatiations Problems, Fixes and Questions... - Selur - 11.08.2021

Do that, will look at it once I fixed the letterbox issue, which will probably keep me busy for the next few days.

Cu Selur

RE: Telecine Vatiations Problems, Fixes and Questions... - shijan - 12.08.2021

Here is another DVD and another confused situation. Lucky this time all VOBs have the same metadata, but after remuxing i got 3 different types of source to start and have no idea which version is "correct" one:

1. Original VOB:
Mediainfo: 23.976 Progressive 2:3 Pulldown
In Hybrid detected as telecine(soft) 29.97 CFR
In Hybrid in Progressive more i see it as 2 interlaced, 3 progressive frames pattern.

2. DVD opened in Hybrid
In Hybrid detected as Progressive 29.97 CFR, Framecount 269490
In Hybrid in Progressive more i see it as 2 interlaced, 3 progressive frames pattern.

3. DVD remuxed with MekeMKV:
Mediainfo: Variable 23.976 Progressive 2:3 Pulldown
In Hybrid detected as telecine 29.97 CFR, Framecount 269762
In Hybrid in Progressive more i see it as progressive.

[Image: XQoEClZ.jpg]

It was also a surprize for me that there are two types of Telecine exists. Things are going worse Smile

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine#Soft_and_hard_telecine

Hard-telecined video is stored on the DVD at the playback framerate (29.97 frame/s for NTSC, 25 frame/s for PAL), using the telecined frames as shown above

Soft-telecined material is stored on the DVD at the film rate (24 or 23.976 frames/s) in the original progressive format, with special flags inserted into the MPEG-2 video stream that instruct the DVD player to repeat certain fields so as to accomplish the required pulldown during playback.

RE: Telecine Vatiations Problems, Fixes and Questions... - Selur - 12.08.2021

Quote:Hard-telecined video is stored on the DVD at the playback framerate (29.97 frame/s for NTSC, 25 frame/s for PAL), using the telecined frames as shown above

There is no telecined PAL content, there is 2:2 pulldown content, but usually that isn't refered as telecined.

Quote:... and have no idea which version is "correct" on

That is probably because some DVDs are not properly authored and flagged.
Look at the content while it's treated as 'progressive'.
If there are no combing artifacts, stick with that.
If the frame count shown in the preview (+/- a few) matches the frame count Hybrid shows then everything is fine, otherwise let me know.

Cu Selur

RE: Telecine Vatiations Problems, Fixes and Questions... - shijan - 13.08.2021

Here are some tests that may help to understand what is gong on in TIVTC and VIVTC filter settings and probably may help to improve them in future.
Both filters sometimes may appear in situation with complicated combed frame that they attempt to fix. All default settings. Input set to telecine(soft):

TIVTC Deinterlacer: inner - sometimes it produce not too accurate jagged edges on complicated combed frames.
[Image: Ph90GT3.jpg]

TIVTC Deinterlacer: QTGMC - it attempt to rebuild new frame from both frames. In most cases it look ok.
[Image: SWO8QRL.jpg]

TIVTC Deinterlacer: NNEDI3 - produce strong interlaced artifact. Have no idea if this is a bug or just something specific to NNEDI3.
[Image: DAATkNO.jpg]

TIVTC Deinterlacer: Yadif - produce exact same strong interlaced artifact. Have no idea if this is a bug or just something specific to Yadif.
[Image: VvWupPI.jpg]

---------------------------------------------------------

VIVTC Deinterlacer: QTGMC - it attempt to rebuild new frame from both frames. In most cases it look same as TIVTC QTGMC, but sometimes in some places VIVTC QTGMC looks less accurate in small details.
[Image: cEo47Zz.jpg]

VIVTC Deinterlacer: NNEDI3 - looks near same as QTGMC here but slightly softer.
[Image: lPvrY6Z.jpg]

VIVTC Deinterlacer: TeintMod - this filter seems depends of VIVTC setting Order: 0 or 1.
When set to Order: 0, it produce produce strong interlaced artifact.
When set to Order: 1, looks like it looks ok.
[Image: wj5MWWR.jpg]

RE: Telecine Vatiations Problems, Fixes and Questions... - alhobart - 13.08.2021

Thank you for this thread, Sijan. I am having an interesting issue, too. Not with Hybrid, so much, but with Video Enhance AI. I am upscaling a DVD of an animated movie that I doubt will ever see even a BR release. I have to use my laptop to run VEAI, but it has a problem that it randomly restarts when running that program, so instead of upscaling the entire DVD at the same time, I ripped the VOB files and ran each VOB through individually. Came out pretty good, I'm happy with the results, but I noticed an odd issue with the first VOB file, because it was made for TV movie, it is 4:3 and when upscaling to 4K, it comes out 2880x2160 (Anyone familiar with VEAI, I used the Custom upscale % to avoid burning in the black bars along the side). That works for the four later VOB's but for the first VOB file, I keep getting 3480 x 2160. I could not figure out why that one VOB was odd. I decided to use Hybrid to convert it to an mp4 and use that in VEAI. Hybrid shows it to be Progressive in the Video info. section on the Base tab. Out of curiosity, I checked the other four VOB's and they all show "Telecined(soft)". That seems to make sense why VEAI is treating that one VOB differently. The problem is even if I were to use Hybrid to convert that one VOB to .mp4 and run that through VEAI, VEAI will only spit out an mp4 with 29.97 FPS for that VOB, the other VOB's it spits out 59.94 mp4's. I'm trying to avoid re-encoding the files of the upscaled video, so I ended up ripping the entire DVD and ran that through VEAI, and since my laptop randomly restarts while running VEAI, I ended up splitting it up into 1/4's and used Shutter Encoder to merge them back together. I even tried to force Hybrid to accept it as being Telecined(soft) and output an interlaced video, but the frame count came out with fewer frames than the original VOB.

I wondered if that one VOB is truly progressive and is not interlaced, but now that I see you are running into this issue, I am starting to think that it really might be progressive as a part of some attempt of a form of copy protection. Unfortunately, I think the direct from VOB to 4K upscale came out a bit better than the rip to mp4 to upscale, but even the ripped to upscale came out pretty good.

RE: Telecine Vatiations Problems, Fixes and Questions... - Selur - 13.08.2021

the results with the combing seem to use the wrong field order.
Fixed a bunch of things last night around dvd handling, but not finished yes, will look at it more over the weekend.

RE: Telecine Vatiations Problems, Fixes and Questions... - shijan - 13.08.2021

Few more test results:
Seems VIVTC Deinterlacer simply not "smart" enough. It needs that manual input Order setting and if in combed frame order changes - it produces not too pretty semi-interlaced artifacts. Sometimes that smoothed artifact visible as jagged edges.
In short:
When set to Order: 0, it produce artifact in frame 1, but don't produce artifact in frame 2.
When set to Order: 1, it produce artifact in frame 2, but don't produce artifact in frame 1.
Impossible situation for complicated combed frames Smile

TIVTC looks more "smart" and universal. It automatically "catch" field order to process each combed frame individually and correctly. It don't produce those jagged edges at all.
Maybe TIVTC+Yadif and TIVTC+NNEDI3 works incorrectly in this situation due some internal bug. Or maybe these two filters are not designed for complicated situations. Hope you can figure what is going on there...

TIVTC+QTGMC works the best yet!

RE: Telecine Vatiations Problems, Fixes and Questions... - shijan - 21.08.2021

Not really telecine related, but seems DAA antialiasing filter applied before resize helps to remove tiny random interlaced artifacts that usually appear on PAL DVDs type that visually look progressive, but recorded to interlaced container.
Other antialiasing filters (including DAAMod) seems can't do same trick or do it partially with artifacts.

Same artifacts are possible to remove with Vinverse, but i am not a fan of that filter because subjectively Vinverse sometimes affect other parts of the image and may add new artifacts or soften things.
[Image: FpGW9sb.jpg]

RE: Telecine Vatiations Problems, Fixes and Questions... - Selur - 21.08.2021

It's like saying interlacing can be taken care of my vertically resizing by a factor of two, then resizing back to the original solution and then applying an anti-aliasing filter. Confused

Sure technically speaking you get rid of the arifacts, but you destroy so much information in the process. Dodgy

There are so many ways to really destroy details. Big Grin

-> Personally I would strongly advice not to use anti-aliasing filters to get rid of combing artifacts.
Hey, do what you want, but really that is a bad idea to do this on not so trashy content where you do care about detail preservation.
Better read up on what vinverse/vinverse2 do, what the settings mean and properly adjust them.

Ci Selur